Demanding reparations, past slavery, past land loss, and the false justification there in.
This began as a comment to @everittdmickey's post Rant: Slavery and it kept growing, and growing. Eventually I forgot it was a comment. I decided to turn it into a post instead.
My biggest problem with people claiming victim status over slavery, and demanding reparations.
They are not the slaves they are describing. They never have been.
Their ancestors likely were. All of our ancestors likely have been depending how far we go back in history for reparations.
So why do they deserve reparations for something that was never done to them? Furthermore, if they deserve these reparations then technically we all do. If you set a limit on how far we can look back in time then that would indicate there is an expiration on when this status can be claimed. Who has the right to dictate that time? To me the answer is none of us. If it wasn't done to you, and experienced by you then you are no victim, and if the people who did it are dead then there is no one to repay you for something that was not done to you. No victim, no crime.
I apply this to "native" Americans too. No one living is guilty of stealing your land. It is likely you never actually owned it. In addition, before that the tribes fought among each other and land changed hands. How far back in time do you go to put claim on something that you personally never owned?
By that technique, all of us can make such claims somewhere. We can all claim to own Africa for example since go back far enough and that is where it is said we all originally came from.
Now before you think I am the white guy basking in my mythological white privilege during a time that white punishment seems acceptable to the status quo. I have a significant amount of "native" American ancestry. By blood I have both Chickasaw and Cherokee ancestry. My ancestors walked the Trail of Tears.
I may actually have a significant enough amount I could have claimed tribal status, gotten scholarships, etc. I never felt right doing that.
I have met a very pale skinned blonde guy in my past who is part of some Michigan based tribe, and he has gotten significant sized paychecks each month for as long as I've known of him simply due to being a significant enough amount of that particular tribe.
Was his land taken from him? No.
Was he ever a victim? No.
A treaty was created that seems to exist in perpetuity and allows future generations to claim victim status, when they are not.
This has been conditioned to be normal. It is not.
It forces those who had nothing to do with past crimes to pay recompense for things they didn't do. It pays people recompense for crimes they were never a victim of.
None of us are guilty of the crimes of our ancestors.
None of us are owed for lost property of our ancestors.
If you held that property as yours and it was forcefully taken from you while you are alive then you would be a victim, a crime would have been committed, and there should be reparations. Yet that doesn't make by extension your grand children, great grand children, and even your own children if they were not living on that property at the time of the crime, a victim.
No victim. No crime.
If you personally never owned it. You are not a victim.
If you personally did not have the atrocity done to you, or were alive to see it done to your family. You are not a victim.
Furthermore, I tend to agree with Lysander Spooner with regards to people who think they have the right to enslave future generations and force them to agree with contracts they never signed. Yet this happens all over the place.
This quote comes to mind:
And yet we have what purports, or professes, or is claimed, to be a contract—the Constitution—made eighty years ago, by men who are now all dead, and who never had any power to bind us, but which (it is claimed) has nevertheless bound three generations of men, consisting of many millions, and which (it is claimed) will be binding upon all the millions that are to come; but which nobody ever signed, sealed, delivered, witnessed, or acknowledged; and which few persons, compared with the whole number that are claimed to be bound by it, have ever read, or even seen, or ever will read, or see.
It occured to me I haven't seen you for a really long time (things have a hard time occurring these days) and I was concerned... relieved to see you still here!
I've been around. Just not as active on steemit as I focused on other life things. I still have other stuff going on so I am still not as active as I was by a long shot.
Neither am I, for health reasons... I keep looking for NewsAgg, but haven't seen it. As long as you're well!
I haven't done a newsagg recently. They take me more time than I've had lately. Especially for how much time it takes versus what I make doing it. If I have the time I'd still do it. Yet I've had to focus on work, and some other life things and haven't had the 2-3 hours it takes for me to do a good @newsagg for awhile. I will in the future.
It also wouldn't be too terrible if prices went up a little... It hardly seems worth the effort- $3.50 for 12 hours work!
Curated for #informationwar (by @thoughts-in-time)
Ways you can help the @informationwar!
I could hardly agree more that reparations as discussed are nothing but a shakedown. However, it is very true that various conquests have disenfranchised victim populations, and that the victors profit generationally thereby. It's just factual.
Your point about all of us having been both victims and victors via our ancestors is spot on. The entire Slavic peoples are named thusly because they were so egregiously enslaved for much of history. Slav derives from slave.
A great deal of douchebaggery is part and parcel of reparations movements, and often is employed by people that know better, but just seek advantage in any way possible. Ignoring that black slaves were usually initially enslaved by their black neighbors and traditional enemies, such as Arabs, or that slavery was a global enterprise, and not merely American, or that various ethnic and racial groups - including Blacks and Jews - were slaveowners in early America is not surprising in such context.
Also, Blacks aren't a monolithic race. Africa is the most genetically diverse continent, and Blacks are probably more genetically diverse than all the other races combined, so the intrablack ethnic and racial warfare and oppression is every bit as responsible for historical enslavement as anything you could name.
There are groups whose goal is to destroy Caucasians because they're racists. Amongst these groups are Caucasians. Go figger.
Thanks!
Sure. Yet that is not the crime of the descendants of those victors. It is also no longer a crime against the descendants of the victims as there is no known quantity what MIGHT have been done with the land. And as I stated if that is the litmus test then ALL of us regardless of who we are can claim victim status simply due to our ancestors.
And still are today. :) After Qaddafi was taken out by Hillary creating the vacuum that spawned ISIS. Libya today actually has public slave auctions and slave blocks. I'm certain you can buy more than just black people there, but it exists today. Legacy media doesn't really talk about that. They don't talk about anything that might heal the divides. They want to create more divides and grow them. Divided we can be herded like sheep by the masters who wield their propaganda engines to act as the bark of the sheep dog to send us where they want us to go.
Check out the movie Hotel Rwanda if you haven't already.
Thanks for the good response.
Victim status stems from low self esteem and confidence. People who deep inside believe that they cannot become successful on their own, so they demand support from everyone and uses history to justify it.
A confident minority would actually feel offended by reparations; he/she would view it as an act of infantilization and a sign that society still views him/her as inferior.
I agree. Though I also think the being offended victim thing these days is also being fueled almost by the same techniques used to spread cults and religions. The ostracized factor for not acting like a victim. Act like a victim and look for ways to be the victim or risk becoming a victim of us. Thus, why classes on Micro-aggressions exist. That is nothing more than a way to train yourself to look for things to be offended by. So that class if you took it could teach you how to be offended without any issues with self esteem or confidence.
So while I agree with you. I am saying there is more going on with it these days. It is almost becoming a religion.
In fact you could say we almost have a religious war going on.
I think I might do a post on that. :) Thanks for the inspiration.
No disrespect to your articulation but this isn't one of your usually good analysis....
This is a topic that directly impacts me and I believe I have a good sense of some of the effects of Slavery and I would thus share my thoughts here...
First off Slavery is THE most evil act of human kind, the effects we could never fully understand and its still playing out. There could never be enough reparations for these groups, nonetheless, I also understand many are trapped in the Victim-hood mentality. One of the dangerous consequences of slavery is self-worth, I believe its something that transcends generation, its probably the most damaging effects of slavery, very few recognize it and probably deal with it, I myself have had to take many time trying to get my friends to understand we are more than our history. Taking that into account, slavery left us with nothing, absolutely nothing, even in my generation we have nothing we can claim to and the system that existed then still existed now, for example we were handed down a constitution from England, one that does not recognize us as equal, in fact, we are still recognize of subjects of the Queen. Land ownership is another tricky issue, much of the land still belongs to a select few, with me I recognize I must try my best to first own piece of the place I call home, in fact, only as recent as 1992 people were able to own some land and that came at a cost of a lifetime of saving, compounded to that we don't work for anything of substance. Our salaries are still a joke even today, people are working for less than 500USD if that gives you an idea where people stand. Sadly land value has skyrocketed, if you to own any good valuable land on the islands, you get a 1 million price tag, and something I am not to happy about, our governments seem to priority giving the best to foreign investors for 1 USD dollar a square foot. Even when our government do act in our favor, there is lots of interest groups with agenda lobbying otherwise. So we basically have a generation, my generation starting from literally scratch, our parents and grand parents have nothing to hand down, there is no prosperity in that. We seem now to be caught up in this whole migration situation, with those trying to get better basically stamp out because you recognize as not being good enough to even move between the islands, and that's sadly the case.
We have a whole generation fighting very complex issues and trying to put right a system that is working against them. We can chat more on that, I have many more to say, but yes I believe reparation and rights should be given, and its very important to get these groups up and running, they really need the help. Those who are fighting, give them the help. Take me for example, I believe I am reasonable person with lots of business ideas and good grasp of getting things done but I can't really get much done, when I got to the bank and they ask for collateral for a loan if I need to do business, where do I get that collateral from? I have a worthless medical degree and the system really does not afford much upward mobility. I also recognize I need not to be in the victim-hood and try to push on but its not as simple and easy as you think. Listen this would not be an easy fix, I am a fruit of slavery, its literally been three generation and half and I come from a progressive family, we have made progress with regard to education but getting us competitive we still need lots of help but more importantly we need to root up the current system, its one of the reasons I see cryptocurrency of a liberating tool from this present yolk.
I can't speak for the Irish, they would have to tell their story
You know your history, I don't
You have a heritage, I don't
My indoctrination from school has always been loyalty to the Queen, its only been recent that those things have stop,
I have nothing that I can say I own or have a claim to, only than a worthless degree
As I said, it isn't a simple fix, get over it... For me personally, I wish we can get pass this part of history of live and appreciate each other as equals but I don't sit around and just watch other tell folks like me get over it, when I know that this very system does not afford any upward mobility
I am as mix up as it come, African and European, I still don't know about either, I may never know but things are things I think about, these are things I love to find out, I would love to visit Africa some day or even find some of European roots.... There is still a longing, you still feel empty, its something that was taken away that still keeps you searching
FYI..you might read up on the Irish.
then thank god you weren't one.
the Black slaves had it comparatively easy.
One Love from the Caribbean, we have a great opportunity to make the world a better place and I believe it can be done...
One Love to the Irish, I feel for people that history has not been kind with but I hope someday we can all enjoy some togetherness, btw, I always welcome folks to come visit the Caribbean, enjoy some sunshine and do some island hopping
three cheers for world peace.
Why? Simply because you disagree or don't like what I am saying?
You made some solid points, but you went off by just brushing aside that people who experience Slavery should just get over it but what I am telling you its not that simple, there is a lot of work still needed to adjust some of the problems that persist, that's where I believe reparation funds can assist, even if it means, people coming from these backgrounds get a 75% cut in cost of education and funds put there to encourage more entrepreneurship to catch up with the general population... It is unacceptable to just suggest what happen to the few who made it through and ignore the fact that whole population is fighting behind..
I did nothing of the sort. That is incorrect. Go reread it.
I was very clear. An actual slave is a victim.
Yet if your ancestors were slaves that does not make you one.
No one owes you reparations for things that were not done to you. It's simple.
Nowhere does that brush aside people that experience actual slavery.
It brushes aside people who think they are owed due to what happened to their ancestors and they think people that had nothing to do with that have to pay them for it. Bullshit, evil, greedy, envious thinking.
No victim. No crime.
If you are an actual slave. That is a victim. The person that owes reparations is the perpetrator enslaving you. Not some random person you decide should pay you because something someone else did.
The problem is. Slavery has not been legal in the U.S. for some time. We don't have any living slaves in our country. Unless it is being done illegaly and in secret. In which case, if that is pointed out it will be dealt with.
So there is no one in our country owed reparations for slavery. They were not slaves. Your ancestors being slaves does not make you one.
Read your tone again and this is the point I am telling you "No one owes you reparations for things that were not done to you. It's simple." that's what your analysis came across as and I am telling you its not that simple...
The carnage of Slavery lives on Trust me, it isn't a simple fix as you think... You have a heritage, I don't, go over this again... I live on an island here I don't really belong, that's not my home, I own nothing according to my constitution, I am a subject to the Queen, its written, I pledge my allegiance to Queen Elizabeth II each time I say my pledge... Lots of people in US, have no clue of their heritage, their surname isn't even theirs, my surname is not mines, that's was the Slave owner of my ancestors I belong too... You simplying a very complex topic and saying the children of these people are not affected, I am telling you they are, come see and go look into some of your community at the heart of many of the problem Blacks face is a lost of identity and broken family, the struggle still continues today... Go over it again, its not as simple as you putting it, understand that road...
If that's your thinking, what would be your view of land ownership, should the children of slaves enjoy the land as well, reparation is a must, its the reason why Zimbabwe and South Africa struggle so much, it can't be a case where the same select few of descendants of Slave owners still own 90% of the land, this error MUST be corrected, I can't in my right mind see people struggle and say "It brushes aside people who think they are owed due to what happened to their ancestors and they think people that had nothing to do with that have to pay them for it. Bullshit, evil, greedy, envious thinking."
We must correct this carnage and ensure that the children of Slaves get the fruits as well
My ancestors (some of them) were Black Irish slaves.
Does that mean I get double reparations?
oh yeah...Black Irish was something else...it didn't mean skin color.
Fooey.
That's not me. Although I look like it and agree with what is said.
I have NEVER worn a suite in my adult life.
or (gasp) a neck noose.
I never intend to either.
Nice beard huh?
I have "black dutch" ancestry as well, which was also not black skinned. I am the epitome of the theme of "melting pot".
That's the thing about all these people wanting to breed white people away. Genes don't always work out that way.
fun fact: humans share 97% (perhaps more) of the same genes with chimps.
Kinda makes skin color seem insignificant?
I consider skin color insignificant anyway other than I get sunburned way too easily. :)
I no longer get out much. I spend weeks at a time indoors....
and I STILL have a truker's tan.
sheesh.
I spend so much time inside now too that I take Vitamin D daily.
Hell, we share half our DNA with trees.
Makes ya think, huh?
We're distant cousins of the polio virus.
I sometimes conceive of life as a single organism, with various DNA differentiated 'organs', or species.
Unironically.
Very telling pic. I am convinced that the concatenation of forces in local regions of space has effected moments of consciousness which, unable to persist due to the fluctuations of the forces that spawned it, lasted for but a moment, and perished without a second thought.
Literally.
From whence does the concept of "property" originate? Did any man alive or have lived causes the earth to rise from the seas? Did any man seed the earth with minerals and resources that they use on daily basis? Did any man breath life into livestock? What in this planet can be considered "private property" without arrogating that which has not been produced by man? Property is nothing more than ledgerization of creation by the crown and the state; without the state, no man has any legitimate claim to any thing on this planet. Those who would deny the authority of the crown in governing the sociopolitocal order, in which they reside, deny the "right" of their very existence.
I think it originates from very simple base ideas.
Even small life forms such as ants, termites, and pretty much any other life form will designate something as their shelter, their area. Many animals also have areas beyond their dens that become their hunting areas. They will even fight over such areas.
You having a home you can return to and sleep regularly becomes in concept property.
Now, it can extend the more we think and we create. If I make a tool, art, food, or whatever with my own effort it is likely I didn't do it so others can simply come take it from me without my permission. It thus becomes my property. If I VOLUNTEER it to others then I give it to others. If I VOLUNTEER it to some pool then it is still my choice. If it is taken by force or without my volunteering it that is called theft.
It is simple. It is nature. It is survival. It is motivating.
Communism is idiocy. It sounds good on a purely emotional level as it focuses on negatives to highlight and claims to be the solution. Yet those negatives are outliers and they are part of life. The proposed solution removes voluntarism from the equation and it is used to justify great evil. It can work in small groups of people that all voluntarily agree to be part of it, but it does not scale well. It becomes a tool for oligarchy that controls the deluded system and enslaves the rest.
Property is a very real thing. It existed long before the concept of a crown.
Denying it's existence is denying reality. It is a fantasy, or if you study it realistically a nightmare.
Then you will agree that the concept of "property" has inherent within it force and force projection. All creatures of this planet take existing resources by force and define them as theirs. "Theft," then, is merely the actions of a weaker foe in taking resources from the stronger. When the strong take resources, it is considered to be "private property" or the "common wealth."
What is the crown but the very symbol of force and power projection? Without this symbol of power and force monopoly, nothing exists that can be termed "property," private or public. It is the crown and its symbols that prevent the would be Huns from eating your children, raping your wife, and burning your house down. The White Afrikaans are learning painfully that without political power, legal statues are but wind and "property" is but illusion.
Does man exist in a vacuum of culture, society, politics, and religion that he claims to "create" ex nihilo? His very being is a byproduct of his sociocultural matrix; his very thoughts are founded upon those of his wiser forebears; his very speech has been given to him by the language conventions of his society. And what is society but the crown that has defined, established, and guaranteed the very place of a man's birth?
Voluntarism is a nice fantasy to lull the unlettered peasants into working more diligently at the tasks assigned them, but for you and I, who are discussing matters of governance, let's not devolve the discussion into meaningless rhetoric fit only for propaganda. The obstacle for the ascendancy of the libertarian faction is the peculiar problem of defining "property" without invoking the crown. The 'Murican "conservative" rhetoric is more apt in gathering popular support without encountering the thorny issue of property and voluntarism.
I typically refer to aggression as force.
I do not consider self defense force, or defending your home, the things you make with your own hands, the things someone gives you as a gift or in exchange for effort or goods from you.
I actually see stealing from other people as force. I have zero problems with self defense.
Stealing is a choice. Taking someone else's property is a choice.
The robber playing semantic games doesn't make it suddenly a good thing.
How did any man come to "own" any thing on this planet without first taking the said thing via use of force? Laws and definitions are written by the victors, and the descendents of these victors "own" property. "Agression" and "self-defense" are semantic arguments regarding conquest. If a man arbitrarily defines creation as being his "private" property and uses violence to enforce his arbitrary declaration, is such action conquest or self-defense? All property is defined and acquired through violence and force. To suggest otherwise is dishonest.
Nope.
Arriving as an animal does and setting up a home, lair, den, abode.
Force HAS (but not in all cases) been used to take such places from other people. Yet I have not condoned that.
I also don't base my reality of now on the bad things done in the past which ultimately are irrelevant unless you own a time machine and can go back and change it.
Then if I pick up a stone and start etching art in it. Generally that is MY creation, and my property. Again no force involved. Force is involved when someone such as yourself thinks it is okay for you to come take it from me because it was not my property. Hell I may not have been done with what I was doing to it. It doesn't matter.
Nature will show you how well that works out. It's imaginary fantasy.
No it is not. You are deluding yourself.
For it to be force I have to take it from someone else. There are plenty of cases where that is not required. I already gave you some examples in the the previous reply. Your cognitive dissonance is very active trying to defend imaginary ideas.
LOL, so private property is declared, when someone labels a piece of creation with the tag "MINE," and presto! he owns that piece of creation? And anyone who refuses to accept the said man's insane claim is the "aggressor?" Your concept is so insane that not even homeless schizophrenics attempt to use it to alleviate their misery. Maybe you believe that you created yourself ex nihilo, as well as this universe, so anything you label "MINE" belongs to you.
The stuff you write is for the foolish youths and unlettered peasants. Don't insult my intellect with the propaganda rhetoric, in which you don't even believe.
Okay... let me make this REALLY SIMPLE for you.
Do you have kids? If not have you ever taught kids?
Do you allow them to simply go up and take things out of other kids hands?
Do you allow them to go take the food that someone else is eating that may have sat down in front of them on a table?
If you do then you are quite stupid. I actually doubt you do.
So let me put it this way. I am trying to head off strife. You are trying to foster it.
Come try to take something that I put effort into creating. I dare you. ;)