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RE: "Nice Guy" Jesus: Is the Love of the Biblical God Really Unconditional?

in #religion • 7 years ago

Without stepping too deeply into debates about misogyny and the concept of misandry and how much that's a problem, I'd say it's akin to the question of whether or not "reverse racism" exists.

Sexual and physical violence against women and verbal abuse are problems that almost all women experience at some point, and being berated for politely turning down someone's sexual advances, which is obviously a human right, is a common experience. It helps a lot to be able to laugh at it and share it rather than just cower in fear that someone you know at work or at school is going to come after you for having threatened their masculinity. Many incels literally believe in condemning women to sexual slavery and punishing women who are not monogamous because they think it is a grave injustice to them that women are permitted to reject them sexually. The fact that there are some women out there who act irrationally in that /r/nicegirls kinda way is a good way to bolster that myth that all women are monsters who deserve to be sexually abused. I know that there are women who hit their partners or pressure their partners to have sex, and there are some who act badly (or even horrifically) if they are turned down, and those things are all wrong that certainly deserve to be addressed. Is it a universally experienced phenomenon that men suffer? Are there an enormous amount of men out there who fear that their partner or their stalker will one day kill them? Are these big societal issues that have to be faced head on for everyone to see so people will finally stop doubting the victims of it? I don't think Incels and feminists who take things farther than I agree with are at all two sides of the same coin.

7 years ago in #religion by
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     7 years ago (edited)

    I'd say it's akin to the question of whether or not "reverse racism" exists.

    Indeed. Racism is racism. There is no special category of it. Likewise, there are people who misbehave when rejected from all walks of life, men and women.

    Is it a universally experienced phenomenon that men suffer?

    Yes. Probably this surprises you, but you're not a man. You don't experience what women can be like to men when they feel rejected.

    Likewise it was difficult for me to understand the frequency with which women experience it until browsing /r/niceguys because as a man, I don't see/experience that behavior from other men like women do.

    I don't think Incels and feminists who take things farther than I agree with are at all two sides of the same coin.

    Then you have a very slanted perspective on this issue, which your post reads like an elaborate justification for. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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       7 years ago 

      My "without stepping too deeply into" disclaimer in my previous comment was written precisely to avoid this tone, though I'm not sure whether or not you mean for this to have a tone (the shrug emoji tells me yes, but I could be wrong). From your last comment, I also gather that you didn't really read or consider what I said in any serious way, if all you got out of it was that it was an "elaborate justification" for my "slanted perspective." Feminism is an important topic to me, as I'm sure you've noticed, but when I brush up against people who seem hostile to it I take one of three approaches, all in acknowledgement that minds are seldom changed on this topic: a. just don't respond; b. respond with a "I suppose we'll agree to disagree"; c. write back a measured and thoughtful response that addresses their perspective while also offering my own, preferably with as much data as possible. 90% of the time, I choose option "b;" about 5% of the time, I go with "a," (in the case of men who--on this topic--seem scary and threatening to me); but then there's the 5% of the time that I engage, which I save for those I believe possess exceptional critical thinking skills, of which I very much consider you one of them. So with that in mind, I say the following:

      but you're not a man
      you have a very slanted perspective on this issue

      That is a self evident truth, and obviously one that could be argued for yourself.

      You don't experience what women can be like to men when they feel rejected.

      It is true that I do not experience rejection from the male perspective, but I think it's a common experience among all humans to experience rejection in some form at some point in their life. It's true that it's hurtful, and it sucks to experience it. But it's a false equivalency to say that the pain of romantic rejection and the fear that comes with being physically and sexually threatened by men who are larger and more powerful than you are two sides of the same coin, not just in terms of severity, but in terms of frequency.

      Here's some data to back that up:

      • Men account for 96% of homicide perpetrators worldwide. To anticipate the anti-feminist counter argument, they also are more often homicide victims, at around 78%, but that does not account for the extreme disparity.
      • Half of women homicide victims are killed by male intimate partners.
        -The data is much more limited for male victims of partner homicide for obvious reasons, but I did find one statistic that placed it at 29%.
      • Just logically speaking, since men are on average much stronger and larger than women, in the event that a woman physically attacks a man (which is, of course, absolutely wrong and inexcusable), he will be much more likely to be able to defend himself and escape. Women have this in the back of their minds every time they walk alone at night. I know that I have gone to elaborate lengths to avoid ever having to walk alone anywhere due to instances in which men cat called me or harassed me on the street when I was alone and would not have been able to defend myself.
      • I hesitate to post sexual assault and rape statistics because I know they vary widely because it relies on personal reporting and some women define sexual assault differently, but I think we can all agree that it's extremely common. Again, anecdotally speaking, I personally know women who were sexually assaulted by men who had previously threatened or harmed them physically.
      • There are still many places in the world where women have little to no rights whatsoever. What separates "us" from that kind of treatment is the feminist movement. It was not very long ago that women couldn't vote, that partner rape was not considered a crime, that sexual harassment in the workplace was considered normal, that women couldn't take out credit cards, etc. We owe a lot to the feminist movement.
      • Anecdotally, a friend of mine on FB recently asked the question in a status update of how many men her female friends have blocked due to harassment. Some of those women had numbers exceeding a dozen. In my lifetime, I'm sure mine would exceed a dozen as well. I'm rarely on Facebook, so I've only had to block 4 men. Some of those men physically threatened my life or stalked me. I have considered that fact at times when posting on here. Most of the men who responded said they had to block one or two "crazy exes" (which I do not doubt), or that they had never had to block anyone at all.

      From this I would conclude that sexual and physical violence against women, and the not-at-all-uncommon male tendency to threaten it when rejected (a la Nice Guys), is an issue which desperately needs our continued attention. Men feeling pained by rejection or feeling that they are not sexually gratified are not at risk of imminent physical harm because of that pain. Therefore, the feminist movement and the incel movement are not at all fighting equivalent battles and the reasons for their anger are very different.

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